PADI Training vs.. others

I agree with you there. And I think if the industry had not set
up and defended the C-card system, we'd all be standing in line
at the diver's license bureau.

Lee Bell...

ZamaTim...

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Reef Fish...

Ah, Lee is fast on his draw this time -- as opposed to the accepted bet
has been sitting there for almost 2 days! I had said in my post,

RF> Sit around folks -- you'll be seeing some exciting mouth-
RF> dancing, wiggling, and weaseling by Lee Bell trying to back
RF> out his claim -- which as everyone worth a grain of salt would
RF> know is an IMPOSSIBLE feat, according to the LAWS of Physics
RF> and Physiology!

hammond...

Well, if it is against the law you can always file charges but Lee
is not the only person who can do this. Several years ago I observed
a divermaster in St Luca who put NO air BC and maintaned full control
of his bouyancy solely by adjusting his breathing.

hammond...

Since you were not there I assume you are arguing a priori that what I
observed is impossble. You'll have to explain why.

bob crownfield...

could fish be both presumptuous and ignorant?

Chris Guynn...

Hasn't that already been established?

The divemaster spent much of the dive floating backwards watching the
dive group. No motion, no fining.

Typical human lung capacity is 4-6 liters, which is (roughly) eight to
12 lbs of bouyancy. More than enough capacity to adjust for a swing of
4 to at most 6 lbs. While typical tidal volume (the amount we usually
breath in or out) is only about 0.5 liters (+/- one lb), pretty much
any diver can make a temporary adjustment of more than one lb just by
breathing in or out a big breath. Some are good enough (or reckless
enough?) to manage to adjust this way for the entire dive. Personally,

Lee Bell...

Start a couple lbs heavy, end a couple lbs light and you're there. It would
be difficult to compensate for 5 lbs positive or negative, but it's not hard
to do it for plus or minus two at all.

Popeye...

I can't see Dan Bracuk's posts, why is that?

mike gray...

They're a couple pounds heavy at the header, a couple pounds
light at the sig; physioelectronically impossible.

I don't think it is a particularly good idea, but some divers *CAN* do it.

It may be an unusual capabillity.
It may not be good practice.

Lee Bell...

Since nitrogen absorption is a function of relative partial pressures,
changing your breathing pattern could slightly alter it. Longer retention
of gas partially depleated of nitrogen or replacing it sooner might slightly
increase the average partial pressure of nitrogen and, therefore nitrogen
absorption. Someone's going to have to come up with some good evidence that
it's significant before I start worrying about it.

Altering breathing patterns does not increase the risk of a lung expansion
injury. Only holding your breath while ascending does that and nobody in
this discussion does, or would recommend that.

hammond...

Lee --

I did say "many not be good practice", not "is not..."!

I agree with you that any difference in nitrogen absorption or off-gassing
is most likely not significant. However, I do think it is something to
consider.

I disagee that "Altering breathing patterns does not increase the risk of a
lung expansion injury." I am of the opinion that someone (NOT necessarily
you!) who is trying to breath while keeping his/her lungs as FULL or as
nearly EMPTY as possible may well make the mistake of holding his/her breath.

Lee Bell...

zippthorne...

but it's not *solely* a function of partial pressure. It's just that
the other factors either average out, or are small compared to that.
For instance, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the rate of
gas transfer also depends on the area of the membrane through which the
gas must pass, which will be consistantly too small or too big if you
use lung-volume as the only method of buoyancy control.

Lee Bell...

I don't think one can support a point by assuming anything. In particular,
I don't think you can simply assume that the surface area, in the lungs,
available for gas transfer changes as you breathe.

I also think you need to be cautious in your use of terms. The term
"lung-volume" implies it is the maximum expansion of the lungs that is the
control mechanism. While that certainly will work, it's not what we're
talking about here. We're taking about taking the same deep breath you
would otherwise take, but changing the way you take that breath to alter the
average lung related buoyancy.

Also, there is a question of CO2 buildup if you aren't completely
evacuating your lungs from time to time.

Lee Bell...

Nobody ever evacuates their lungs completely, ever. Nobody even comes close
without forcing the exhale beyond what is normal and comfortable. Further,
your mention of this issue make it clear that your focused on maximum and
minimum lung volume, neither of which is involved in the changing of
breathing patterns under discussion.

chilly...

Who's talking about not completely evacuating your lungs from time to time?
I'm talking about taking a deeper breath from time to time and expelling it
more slowly or in the reverse, expelling quickly but fully and taking
smaller breaths. It all depends on what the intention is at the time.

I agree with your statement above. The point, which I obviously didn't make
very well, is that altering breathing patterns they way I do does not
involve keeping the lungs as full or empty as possible at all. It's a
change that alters the average buoyancy due to gas in the lungs by breathing
in faster at one part of the cycle and slower at another. Depending on the
amount of buoyancy to be compensated for, it may involve taking a deeper, or
somewhat shallower breath, but it doesn't involve holding it.

Bear in mind that I developed this skill unintentionally and without
realizing I was doing it. I didn't analyze what I was doing until I noticed
other people were doing things differently. The dynamics are as follows.
To ascend, you breath in more quickly at the beginning of the inhale cycle
and slower at the end. You do the opposite on the exhale cycle. This
leaves your lungs more buoyant for more of the cycle. To descend, you do
just the opposite, leaving the lungs less buoyant for more of the cycle. To
maintain neutral buoyancy, you use a pattern that results in an average that
results in neither an ascent nor a decent. If you're doing it
intentionally, it gets a bit complex. The neutral point shifts during the
dive, as does the patterns that let you descend, ascend or remain at a
relatively constant depth. If you develop the skill to the point where it
becomes natural, there's nothing complex about it. You just do it.

Please take note that I am NOT saying there is anything wrong or dangerous
about your (Lee Bell's) pratices. However, other people attempting the same
thing might should be cautious.

But it IS POSSIBLE for some individuals.

What you've observed are the warm up to Lee's Mouth Dance!

As in classical music where a knowledgeable commentator is often
NECESSARY to explain to the non-expert audience what they hear
has much deeper meaning than it meets the eye.

Lee> I offered you one too.

No. I would have accepted and you would have lost. Lee offered
the "bet" to Mika ONLY.

Lee> So far, neither of you has offered to put your funds at risk.

I volunteered my $10,000 bet against Lee's -- by setting conditions
consistent with his brash claim, and in stopping all mouth-dancing
loophole (by requiring hands and feet tied; etc -- to ensure LACK
of finning and arm-waving motion in a Neutral Buoyancy state).

Lee's line, after I explicit $10,000 offer to bet him, was clearly a
case of "mouth dancing, wiggling, and weaseling", on HIS
obfuscation (which we'll hear after this challenge) why my wager
of $10,000 against his is not what I "offered" to my put MY funds
at risk".

See what I mean about Lee's modus operandi?

Screw the masses. Keep cool things for us elite.

Popeye...

No shock at all.

We disagree often, but I value your opinion.

I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently

dweb...

Been there, done that

received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.

The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I

chilly...

I've had to have mine fixed a time or two. On my last trip, Cliff was quite
concerned because my BC would keep inflating a wee little bit from time to
time, when I'd added air at the surface. I paid it little mind, but it

Lee Bell...

I find the need for more lift somewhat unlikely. Diver's are supposed to be
near neutral and even my 18 lb lift wing will get me and somebody not

chilly...

Supposed to be and be, are often two different things. I once dove off of
San Pedro Belize with a couple that claimed to have a couple hundred dives
under their belts. Caribbean conditions, 3 mm wetsuits, slim builds and
they were putting on approx. 22 pounds.

Lee Bell...

Thanks for making my point about diving training.

grossly over weighted to the surface.

chilly...

Not if your hose isn't connected, it won't.

Lee Bell...

At this point, we were talking about using the victim's which, presumably,
is connected.

It might be more of a problem if the BCD is the source of the emergency, but
still should not be a major one. Most divers can, or should be able to swim
themselves and all their gear to the surface in case of a buoyancy control
device failure. Those that can't, due to equipment considerations, should
be carrying backup buoyancy devices, be it a lift bag or a dry suit. That
is the essence of the DIR mandate, no diving steel tanks wet.

chilly...

No doubt that is true, however, not every diver that goes into the water is
properly weighted.

A diver who is relying on a DM for his safety should be characterized as a
novice and should be diving only on novice sites. The also better tell the
DM, in advance, that they're depending on him/her to make up for their own
poor knowledge and/or skills.

chilly...

While you and I and many here know this to be true, many, many vacation
divers are short on experience. Further, in many of the destinations I
dive, the DM's consider themselves more than guides and take great pride in
watching after their flock of novices (and others).
Most of them are also well prepared to do that too.

Lee Bell...

Time should not be a major issue in a BCD type problem, at least not for the
novice divers we're talking about. There's a hard bottom available to stop
them before they get too deep. Any dive that does not have a hard bottom is
normally identified as advanced.

chilly...

Again agreed, but we are talking about what happens in real life here.

Lee Bell...

See above.

Lee Bell...

Generally not. Ascents should be done no more than very slightly buoyant
and probably not even that.

chilly...

Myself, I make effort to completely vent whatever air I have in my BC, no
later than 30' as ascending.

Lee Bell...

An awful lot of divers, did an awful lot of dives, with no buoyancy control
device and with no alternate gas source, without losing a diver every time a
problem developed. The way every one of us was taught to dive, even those
that learned back when I did, includes elements designed to deal with such
problems. I learned the buddy system, buddy breathing, proper weighting and
to manage my depth, gas supply and nitrogen exposure without a depth or
contents gauge. You learned the buddy system, sharing an alternate and
managing your depth, gas supply and nitrogen exposure with a BCD, gauges
and, perhaps a computer. Unless you were luckier than most, you probably
didn't learn to weight properly until much later. Both systems worked to
bring divers back alive.

chilly...

You are correct and even as it is, I suspect that I am often somewhat
overweighted even now.

There are a couple of things worth mentioning in this regard:

chilly...

At what point during your dive do you stop doing it . . and I mean
specifically after you've done it for a bit?

1. The primary responsibility for safe diving is the diver's, not the DM's.

chilly...

We are agreed. Regardless, many's the DM that acts as everyone's buddy and
many's the diver that while still a novice believes in the buddy system.

2. A diver that has to depend on someone else for his or her safety, should
be diving with a buddy. The secondary responsiblity for safe diving is the
buddy's, not the DM's.

chilly...

See above. Two novices diving together may cause each other more problems
in an emergency scenario.

occurred to me that I wouldn't really want to rocket to the surface from 90'
and be messing about the whole way trying to disconnect the hose. I took it
in and had it serviced. They didn't charge me anything and told me it was
just a bit of gunk. What a great shop. I figure they should have charged
me something.
(snip)

have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could

hammond...

It was apparent to me when I took the PADI courses that the questions
at the end of each chapter were taken [mostly?] word-for-word from the
text in the chapter. Students are required to complete the questions
and instructors are required to collect them. (Or at least this was

-hh...

If the "proof" is within this document, then its simply a matter of
showing the document itself, so that people can read it and make up
their own mind: dweb can email me a digital copy of the page and I'll
put it up on a temporary webpage for people to read and decide for
themselves if it is insiduous or innocent.

dweb...

Not sure if I can - I'll have to see if the PADI site will allow
download rather than viewing.

-hh...

I'd have to say that many beginners simply want to go dive, and the
formal training is simply something that they recognize that they have
to go through in order to just go do that.

dweb...

Exactly, which is why PADI's dream s to sell C-cards on the web,
without any training, and if the tort laws made it possible, they'd do
it.

Reef Fish...

I would say that is correct, if you had observed the tens of thousands
of "beginners" (who remain beginners) in various dive resorts and
locations, such as Cozumel, the Caribbean, and the Bahamas dive
locations.

the situation back then.)

My belief is that this is intended as a means to help ensure that the
students actually read the book. Sad to say, my experience is that not
all students actually do read the book. {sigh}

Most of the required knowledge can be absorbed from classroom lecture
and videos. Without the requirement to "turn in" the completed questions,
some instructors would probably not make any attempt to ensure that
students had read the book.

This is not a indicment of either PADI or any/all of its instructors.
Much of the USA population is just damned lazy when it comes to
education. {sigh, again}

Just in case it is NOT obvious, I do believe that SCBUA students should
thoroughly read and study the course manual!

Dillon Pyron...

Charlie, the specific question had to do with AOW. I agree entirely
that OW students MUST read and understand the manual. But for AOW,
most of the written stuff is fluff. I hate teaching much of the AOW
manual. There are things like search patterns and simple dive
planning for deep dives that are important, but a certain amount of
the manual is a repeat of the OW manual. What's more valuable, and
what I stress more, is the stuff we do on shore before each dive and
what we do in the water. AOW is about learning new skills, not on how
to become a diver. Learning new skills safely.

hammond...

Dillon, I agree that my prior comment applies less to AOW and more to OW.
I also agree that AOW is about developing existing skils and learning
new ones.

As I recall, the AOW manual I used had a general chapter or two, then
a group of chapters for the specific dives being done in the AOW course.
i.e. Deep dive; boat dive; night dive; etc.

We had only one "classroom" session, in which we discussed the general
material. We were told to read the chapter(s) pertient to the dives being
done. We then discussed this information at the dive site, before diving.

I think this was a good approach.

Dillon Pyron...

I agree.

As to the end-of-chapter exercises/questions -- while the OW questions

ZamaTim...

Is that who certified you?

Zamatim

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Reef Fish...

Nah! It's irrelevant to rec.scuba!

Unless PADI had recently introduced some new Specialty courses like:

UW Gun Handling

Political Rhetoric Diver

or

Dysfunctional Non-Diving Nincompoop I.

ZamaTim...

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were certainly right-from-the-book, my memory is that the AOW questions
we not always so "obvious". In fact, I recall that we never got a
"definative" for some of the questions. If I went back and looked at
them, I'd expect that to this day I don't know what point(s) they were
trying to make.

Dillon Pyron...

I need to look at the book again. I'm just going by the instructor's
manual, I actually haven't read the book in a couple of years.

Not only PADI manuals, but manuals from at least two other agencies I've
experienced are often not well written. I think the problem is that they
are written by individuals who know a lot about diving, but not a lot about
the educational process. Good divers are not always good instructors;
good divers and good instructors do not always write good manuals.

Dillon Pyron...

Sigh, this is very true. And the instructor's manuals are even more
so. I have to teach to the manual, but I don't have to like it. And
since there's very little about the pre dive briefing, that's where I
put a lot of the instruction. Might be teaching outside of the
confines, but it always works for me.

Limey...

Now THAT'S a dive story!
You gonna be here???

Popeye...

Very few people could live through that.

And finish the dive. :-)

Scott...

Not to mention the two fifths of "Patron with Joan."

have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.

Rick Hughes...

I found the PADI Open water DVD ... childish & patronising, I put this down
to the US style of instruction, and assumed it had it's routes in Sesame

Lee Bell...

Relax, Charlie. I'm not all that easy to offend 8^) and there are probably
quite a few things wrong with my practices.

Street.
Some of the stuff they put over was OK, but it seemed they had to start &
finish every section with a childish playlet,
Very immature and a waste of an opportunity ...........

Something like this:

"Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)

I'm really not exaggerating much at all.

I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I

Gumby...

I was always told that NAUI is more comprehensive than PADI. My OW I is NAUI
but my advanced is PADI. It's like flying an airplane, a certification
should be viewed as a license to learn, not a "your an expert, have at it"

Lee Bell...

Like flying, there's something in between. Personally, I don't want you
flying around over my head with a license to learn to fly safely. I prefer
that you be certified to do so before you're turned loose above me. I feel
the same, but for different reasons, about an entry level diving
certification. In both cases, experience and study will make you better.

jbeck...

I am a commercial pilot. What Gumby said is a bit of the truth...a private
pilot license is nothing but the first step towards further learning. I
hold the same broad opinion about certifications on diving. I am not an
expert in the Padi vs. anything/anyone else arena. I would wager a broad
guess that it doesn't really mater where you got your initial certification
from. The ones who are going to continually learn and improve themselves,
no matter the name on the cert, are the ones who are probably least likely
to have issues. The ones, no matter the name on the cert, who are not
likely to broaden their horizons or understanding, are the ones who are more
likely to become a statistic.

In short, I put less emphasis on what the certifying agency is, and more on
the attitude of the individual diver.

Just my opinionated, uneducated $.02.

Chuck Chatham...

I am a former college instructor and SSI certified diver. The quality
of the instruction you receive is dependent on your instructor, but all
the certification companies work hard to make their programs as
consistent as possible so that regardless of the instructor, all
critical skills are covered. As long as you find an instructor that you
can work with and who you can understand it won't matter much what
agency they are affiliated with. There are really good instructors and
asses in all agencies.
In the end, instructors must sign off that all required exercises are
completed sucessfully. Recognizing that few of their students will be
PHDs, agencies try to make it where the average doofus on the street has
a pretty good chance of understanding their material and passing the
quizzes -- thus your sometimes infantile questions. Sure they want
everyone to complete the course because if you have too many failures
you don't get new students and the supporting dive shops end up closing.
That's not good for anyone.
Ultimaltely, all your certification card shows is that at one point in

Lee Bell...

So fix the problem rather than forcing something on those that don't have
one.

chilly...

Eh?

Lee Bell...

What, can't follow the twisted path my mind sometimes follows? The problem
I'm referring to is the poor weighting skills of the diver in question.
Your concern, which hasn't been mentioned for a while, was the disconnected
hose of the DM. My point is, forget the DM's hose, which makes no
difference by itself, and concentrate on the guy that, if not helped, might
make the disconnected hose important.

time you sucessfully demonstrated all of the required proficiency
exercises for a specific level of dive rating. Just like Jbeck said,

Lee Bell...

Darwin's rules sometimes apply.

Remember the popular position, even in this forum, that diving is not
dangerous.

chilly...

Agreed. But let us not get off track here.

chilly...

(snip)>

Lee Bell...

Me too, but I, and I'm very nearly neutral at all times.

Lee Bell...

When I use my hp 100s, which tends to be the rule rather than the exception
these days, I am too.

that cert card is "is nothing but the first step".

Limey...

I think you either missed his meaning, or he didn't say it very well. A
private pilot's license (or certificate) is often referred to as a "license
to learn", particularly by instructors (see the affinity to diving;0) ). It
isn't meant as a 'license to learn to fly safely'.

doc.

can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their

Lee Bell...

There's nothing wrong with the buddy system. There's a great deal wrong
with anyone that thinks the DM is everyone's buddy, particularly if the one
that thinks it is the DM. Everybody, and I hope DM's in particular, should
know that a proper buddy team consists of two divers, both of whom know that
they are one another's buddy and nobody else's. That's not to say that they
should not help others, only that, when they do, they should know that they
are abandoning their buddy.

chilly...

Let the record reflect that I did not abandon my buddy when I went to the
aid of the other diver.

Lee Bell...

I need details in order to agree. Any time I have gone to the aid of a

chilly...

Let the record reflect that I did not abandon a buddy when I went to the aid
of the other diver.

diver in distress, I have abandoned my buddy. I have transferred most, if

chilly...

Then you must have had a buddy in the first place.

not all, of my attention to the diver that needs help. I'm not giving my
buddy the attention he would otherwise expect. Sometimes that's the right
thing to do, but, at the same time, it changes the risk for the buddy.

chilly...

But only marginally and probably only if they try to help you while you are
helping another.

Lucky for me, about all the attention my buddies expect is for me to have a
general idea where they are.

chilly...

And one hopes that they have a general idea of where you are . . .

training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..

Any comments will be appreciated.

mike gray...

There is some very basic "book" knowledge important to entry
level courses, but not much. Mostly, it's skill development.

As you get further into diving, you may find an interest in
algorithm development, history, archeology, diving physics and
physiology, gas blending, equipment design, cave mapping or any
of the other hundreds of subjects we love to argue about here
(or used to, anyway) and which require the kind of knowledge
that can be assessed with a written exam.

Meanwhile, work on developing yer in-water skills - that's how
other, experienced divers will rank you as a good or bad diver.

Leave the essays to those that don't dive much.

Dan L...

I would have to say that the best thing to do is to have a talk with
the instructor who would be training you rather than going by the
reputation of the training agency as a whole.

PADI do have a reputation for wanting everyone who takes a course to
pass, but the quality of a course is more dependant on the instructor

Dillon Pyron...

In point of fact, skills development is what AOW is about. You should

Matthias Voss...

Which skills specifically?

And, developped into what?

already have the basic knowledge, it's about stepping up a notch.

than anything else. I am a PADI instructor, but I have certs from a
variety of agencies and mainly keep the PADI rating as it is useful for
work (I am a marine biologist and I occasionally train scientific
divers, and the PADI courses are useful for getting the basic certs up
to the point that non-PADI scientific training can begin).

Lee Bell...

In other words, it's a quick and certain way to put a card in the hands of a
diver. That's a useful tool for you. It's a problem for the recreational

hammond...

diving industry.

I have met a lot of very good PADI instructors as well as some quite
dodgy ones, but the same applies to all of the other major agencies
(SSI, BSAC, SAA etc.). You sound like you should be able to get a feel
for how an instructor will be, so go from there. You might find that a
course from a more technical agency is more what you are after as the
academic portions of those courses will be more in depth than a PADI
course...

Just some thoughts...

Dan L.

zippthorne...

The whole point of a training certification is to provide a framework

Lee Bell...

In his case, where there's planned follow up for a program only intended to
provide the card required to proceed, there's no problem.

When there is no assurance that there will be further training, just getting
a card that says you're certified is not enough to ensure you are safe. You
and I both know that there are plenty of divers around whose cards say they
are qualified to dive independently, who are not.

hammond...

Perhaps we do know that -- but we also know that there are relatively few
recreational diving accidents. How do we reconcile the "facts" that here

Lee Bell...

No, you don't. You know that there are relatively few diving accidents
reported and tracked. There's a huge difference.

hammond...

Lee, you can do better than that!

O.K., "technically" you are correct.

However, as a practical matter I cannot imagine that a significant number
of recreational SCUBA diving accidents are taking place without it being
public knowledge.

Matthias Voss...

Define public. In Egypt, torists come and go on a weekly
basis. They know next to nothing of what happens outside
their viz.

Dive ops hide most anything from the authorities because
they are afraid of being penalized/license revocation/bribes
etc.

Do you have a reason to believe that a significant number of diving
accidents are taking place and being hidden??? No disrespect, but

Popeye...

On those rare occasions.

Wonder how much training you need to buy a chainsaw as Searbucks?

Popeye...

They heard of Greg Mossman?

Popeye...

It wasn't necessarily to protect the consumer either, at least any more
than the shareholder...

Matthias Voss...

Absolutely.

it would take more than your own observations and/or suspicions to
change the opinion I stated.

are plenty of unqualified divers but so few accidents?

My own conclusion is that no matter how unqualified we think many divers
may be, PADI et al. _ARE_ producing safe divers.

mike gray...

Either that, or scuba really doesn't take much formal training
to be safe.

hammond...

The to possiblities are not mutually exclusive.

Popeye...

Answer E) All Of The Above.

I have, and have always had, a problem with any agency that puts sales above

Lee Bell...

Your choice, but possibly a bit of overkill. There are a lot of good PADI
divers and a lot of good PADI instructors, just like in all of the agencies.
It is the corporate attitude that offends me. The biggest problems with
that attitude, in my opinion are that it leads people to believe that this
sport is automatically safe and it fails to weed out instructors who don't
teach well enough to motivate students to learn and do what it takes to
participate in this inherently dangerous sport, safely.

safety and, in my opinion, PADI corporate has done just that. YMMV.

Reef Fish...

Another web-link challenged e-mail reader. Otherwise, I could have
pointed you to a link in which it gave ALL the countries for which
the US passport or visa are REQUIRED.

Lee Bell...

The part that issues a card certifying competence to someone who is not.

Matthias Voss...

I know of basic (OW equivalent)certified beginners who were
told they could dive on their own, because "they were
experienced", or asked wether they could take care of beginners.

mike gray...

And my PADI Basic Scuba Diver certification is "...evidence of

Matthias Voss...

Evidence of training is when you show some skills.
Not a cert card.
But below you state that yourself.

training...for limited underwater excursions to approximately 30
feet..."

Having that C-card does not mean I am competent to do so. My
instructor also told me I could dive on my own, but that's just
a judgement call on his part.

Matthias Voss...

I tell my students similar, what they could do, and where
they need more practice.

At one time, scuba gear was sold with an instruction manual.
Reading the manual was considered necessary and sufficient to go
diving. Proficiency and competence was acquired with practice
and experience. Then the certification system was devised for
potential divers to dumb to read, and gullible enough to believe
that a certification was something more than a course-completion

Matthias Voss...

That was about when I decided to get me certified for
advanced levels, because they would not take you to the
deeper wrecks in southern France.

notice.

VK...

Lee - I am curious as to how do you define "competence" in an OW water
student, as I suspect this may be a root cause of difference.

To me, competence in a recently-certified OW diver is:

- ability to maintain depth with reasonable ease (ie, no yo yo diving;
no "be really heavy and kick like mad to stay off the bottom", no
over-reliance on the inflator hose). Occasional use of hands and
less-than-perfect (but still reasonably decent) static buoyancy - not a
problem. That gets better with more time in the water, and as long as
the diver can do a dive and a safety stop without yo-yoing, I am ok.
- ability to demonstrate a basic level of awareness in the water: ie,
staying reasonably close to their buddy, watching their air/depth/time
limits
- ability to react comfortably to things like losing the mask/getting
water in the nose (*especially* this one), having a cramp, running low
on air, etc. without panicking and bolting
- knowledge of basic surface skills like getting kitted up in the
water, awareness of the current/boat

Failure to have DIR-standard buoyancy and trim doesnt equate to
incompetence in my books - atleast not for OW students.

under which *new* divers can confidently learn to be safe. If the

Lee Bell...

No, it's a certification that they have the skills to be safe. There's a
significant difference.

instructor certification is insufficient assurance of basic competance
in this regard, then the certificate is worse than useless, it is
fraudulent.

By definition, a new diver is incapable of properly assesing an
individual instructor.