Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.

The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal

bullshark...

They aren't. Some are good. BOB is SP KnightHawk. The *new* DiveRites
are also good. DiveRite used to have horrible I-weight. The New system
is as good as or better than the SP.

with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression

bullshark...

Weight belts don't cost much to dump. They don't have expensive parts
that need replacement. They don't make your gear heavy while you change
tanks.

though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving

bullshark...

No. All good WI systems accomodate hard weights.

Avoid anything that has a ripcord like it's coughing blood and bleeding
from the eyes.

|> I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus
integrated

BOB is Atomic SSI, with SP Air II (Now in 3rd/4th generation). The Tusa
Duo Air is a licensed clone of the the SP, but no the latest
generation, but very reliable.

location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?

Popeye...

I found that hard weights fit in my BCD just as well, if you have one
single weight.

Most places, in my experience, do -not- have soft weight, they aren't very
durable.

Lee Bell...

And they are more expensive.

mike gray...

I find weight pockets - and the BCs that take them - bulky,
draggy, and complicated, but others love them. Suggest you try
both before you make an expensive commitment.

I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
"dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do

bullshark...

Minor. The detractors will all cite some stuff about difficulty
managing buoyancy on ascent. They might lack experience with the
product or have far too much experience with OOA .

They could just abbreviate their position and say "I don't like them".

First, a correctly weighted warm water diver can dump all air at the
bottom before ascent begins and fin to the surface. This will maximize
control over all-important ascent speed.

Lee Bell...

Depends on how negative you are.

Second, virtually all good BCs have shoulder dumps. You don't need to
use your inflator hose to dump air.

Last, but not least, this is technically a rescue situation. If any
buoyancy needs managing, you manage your victims inflator, and your BC
is empty. Two people managing buoyancy on ascent (one or both of which
is panicked) is a recipe for trouble. Dump yours, manage theirs. Keep
their inflator button out of their hands. It looks just like an "Up"
button to them and they're out of air.

Another minor issue is that they generally use a non-std QDC. Because
they breathe, they want larger diameter air passages, thus the larger
QDC. It's not that big a deal really. It turns out that even the small
bores are not standard, and pretty much everybody has adapters.

you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated

bullshark...

Generally no. The SSI will fit anything. The SP AirII and Tusa will fit
almost anything.

The original SP AirII (20+ years ago) was finicky, hard to breathe,
hard to tune, and had a reputation (deserved but caused by bad tuning))
for free-flowing. All of that left a bad impression for some. Japanese
cars used to be the same way. Progress, you know?

Modern designs like the SSI are as easy to breathe as a primary, and
are more rugged and reliable than classic 2nd stage designs. They
simplify your rig and eliminate an LP Hose along with a dangler. Less
maintenance, less fuss *and* your inflator gets serviced when your
regulator does.

Some people like it, some people don't. If you like it, there's no
reason not to get one. It's not for technical/overhead use and its
probably not a great idea for those that dive in frigid water. The
technical issue is irrelevant to a recreational diver. Should you ever
acquire technical training, you will get a dedicated special purpose
rig for it. Buying all your stuff today as though you'll be one
tomorrow, bestows you with the most dreaded of monickers:

octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
octopus?

Popeye...

First off, any "dangling" octopus is a sign of poor skillset- it should be
secured.

Secondly, if you're talking about a "Mares HUB", have yourself slapped
until the notion passes.

Lee Bell...

I certainly agree with that.

As far as a downside, an "integrated octo", commonly called an "Air II"
(although that -is- a particular brand), requires different training and
tactics to employ.

I.e., how easily can you breath it, and use it to control your depth, in a
panicked diver/rescue situation?

Because you'll be breathing it during air sharing, not the other guy.

It's too short to pass away, and you -must not- give him control of your
power inflator.

Star...

Yes, yes yes. What Pops said. And get a BP/wing; give up the BC idea.

They do come with 2 different sizes of fittings, but adapters are
available, and, in a worst case scenario, one would have to switch a low

Popeye...

I was thinking about getting one for the truck.

mike gray...

Filled with starting fluid, might make sense. Useless for
topping up tires.

Popeye...

I wasn't gonna huff the thing, fer christsake, I meant for subaquatic
egress...

Scott...

They use ether out here in the dunes all the time.

It's one of the only ways you can seat a bead.

pressure hose.

But if you own and travel with both BCD and regs, it's not an issue.

Lee Bell...

Actually, it is an issue, just not a big one. Some places that have a
supply of standard inflator hoses, do not have an adequate supply of
proprietary ones for inflator/alternate units. The solution is easy, carry
a spare.

It's something that brooks lively argument here, many of us having used
and discarded them, you might try the archives.

I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.

Lee Bell...

You're probably not going to like the results. I used to be a big fan of
inflator/alternates. I used the old style SeaQuest Air Source. I liked it
a lot better than the Air II. The problem using it with my current
configuration is that, to be comfortable in use, the inflator hose has to be
a bit longer than normal so that you can turn your head enough to see an OOA
diver that may be on your right. There's a problem keeping even the
standard length hose under control, let alone a longer one. I found no
practical way to secure it. The necklaced alternate was the best choice I
could come up with for my diving. I gave away the combination unit. YMMV.

Popeye...

I kept the uber-short Halcyon hose, and bungied it down tight to my
shoulder strap, like my LPI has always been..

If I ever use the thing, it'll be for a 90 ft ascent to the surface, with
the other diver in my right hand.

Lee Bell...

Using the short hose is the only way I know of to effectively control the
inflator hose using the harness system. I had a couple of problems with
that configuration. One has already been mentioned, the inability to turn
my head to the right, where, as you indicate, the other diver is likely to
be. The other is the increased complexity of getting the second stage out
of the bungie when you need it. That can be more or less of a problem
depending on the design of the second stage/inflator you use. Some are, or
at least were, larger than others.

If you really want to have a minimal configuration, why not expect to buddy
breathe and eliminate the alternte entirely, just like I did back in the
days before I had an alternate, you know, way back in 1991.

Popeye...

I would consider it if I had the same buddy all the time.

Limey Dave, IIRC, has no octo of any kind, and it didn't bother me, as his
buddy, in the slightest.

Lee Bell...

If you're right about Dave, you're more observant than I have been. I'm
surprised some operator has not denied him passage, Captain PADI, for
example. That is exactly why I bought my first octo and BCD in 1991. The
local dive boats would not let me aboard without what they considered to be
minimum safe equipment.

Star...

You are WHAT???? Do tell your reasoning here!

Zen Diver...

The only time I can think of where I have seen an AirII as an advantage
was when one of my instructor colleagues used one to demonstrate dumping
air from the BC. It didn't matter whether he had any air in his BC to
dump all he needed to do was raise the inflator hose and push the purge
button. This would release a healthy load of air and students would see
this as air being released from his BC.

Popeye...

I set out to assemble the most minimal rig possible.

With the retrospect of 400 dives in a tech BC and 600 dives in a BP/W, in
all conditions, I decided that on some (or -most-) dives, I don't need a
full secondary necklaced regulator.

The truest essence of DIR -or- Hogarthianism, is true minimalism.

Let's not take what we don't need... Right?

I've used a lift bag scores of times on a warm water drift dive- I kept
it.

I've used the octo, in this situation, once, in 1000 dives.

So we can minimalize that.

Since 99% of the divers in the water only have a 30-33" reg to donate, as
will I, and since we're going to call the dive on the spot, I just need a
reg, for myself, to get me up.

Dillon Pyron...

I used to have a 32" octo hose. After doing an OOA ascent with Carol
I bought a 6 foot hose. A short hose basically tries to twist the reg
out of the recipeiint's mouth.

No problem. :-)

The sport rig I have mostly done now has two hoses, no SPG.

Lee Bell...

To do this safely, I think you need a regulator with an unbalanced first
stage. That way, you'll have roughly 500 psi in reserve when the regulator
gets noticably harder to breathe. That's also how I handled things way back

Popeye...

I was considering a J valve.

Danlw...

Popeye,
I have one on that old steel 72 in my garage that you saw.
Bit old, but works. The 72 is a bit small though :) Dan

Lee Bell...

In the old, pre 80 days, we did dives of "about an hour" on 72s. These
days, with our 80 cubic foot tanks, we are now do dives of "about an hour."

With an 80 cubic foot, 3,000 psi tank (assumes the tank really is 80 cubic
feet), returning to the surface with 500 psi reserve (a common requirement
by dive operators) gives you about 67 cubic feet of gas for the dive, the
same as you get from a 72 at 2650 if you return to the surface with 185 psi.
185 psi, roughly 5 cubic feet of gas, is enough for the average diver (.5
cf/min SAC) to do a 7 minute safety stop at 15 feet. If a safety stop of 7
extra minutes won't get you to the surface safely, you've got dive planning
problems you can't solve with a slightly larger tank.

For the most part, the difference between an 80 and a 72 is the comfort of
the diver operator and his insurance company. They get to impose a larger
safety margin. 8^)

Lee Bell...

Not as minimalist as an unbalanced first stage, but the effect is much the
same.

I could do most of my diving with my pre-1991 configuration. An 80 cubic
foot tank, harness and solid rubber plate and an unbalanced single hose
regulator, but I won't. I like my 100 cubic foot tanks, which I can't
comfortably use to effect without some kind of buoyancy compensation; I like
the multi level, multi dive, flexibility I get with my computer and I like
the reaassurance I get from knowing my dive time, depth and no deco time.

I like the minimalist approach you've chosen and would not hesitate to dive
with you, or anyone else I felt had the knowledge and experience to use such
a configuration safely, but I'm not at all likely to return to something
like that myself.

in 1991.

Anything else is arguably unnecessary for a warm water, hi-viz dive.

Other dives (tech or training) would have other requirements.

Off the top of my head, the only other two times I had to donate a reg was
with (and to) studii.

That's after 600+ dives with a long hose, and bungied secondary.

Danlw...

A "dangler" seems more of a problem than the "integrated alt air" (and long
hose :) ) that I use. It does cut down one hose, and I carry a spare alt
air plus an extra LP hose.

A decent quality octo will breath "OK" but you really do need
to use it so you KNOW how it responds.

Good diving, Dan

mike gray...

An octo does not have to dangle, in fact it should not. It
should be clipped off in the front or at the right waist (as
should the console/spg).

As a practical matter, you'll never use the octo except to take
a rescue or dm course, and the integrated ones do make for a
cleaner rig. They can be retrofitted to any rig, as they are in
series with the low pressure inflator hose.

Any advice will be appreciated.

Dennis \(Icarus\)...

Do a groups advanced search on "air2" in the groups rec.scuba.*